groundcover question

[snowwhite]

[align=left]Hi I am new here :)[/align]
[align=left]I am planning on planting groundcovers (instead of mulch). I did some research but*I still have questions:[/align]
[align=left]Everything I plant is for birds/hummingbirds/butterflies. What groundcover would make a great food source (for sun and shade areas)? I am*in zone 8 (NC) and first I wanted to go with*wintergreen checkerberry (gaultheria procumbens)*but it seems like it needs pretty acid soil. I know that junipers would be good too but I'd rather not plant that as a ground cover. [/align]
[align=left]Anything that's beneficial to birds/butterflies, easy to care for, suitable for my area*and not invasive?[/align]
[align=left]For the north side I was thinking ajuga (I heard that can be a little bit invasive).[/align]
[align=left]I also heard that creeping thyme makes a great groundcover. However, I would like to plant bulbs (tulip, iris, crocosmia, canna etc.) in that area. Would the creeping thyme keep it from coming through?[/align]
[align=left]Thanks![/align]
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[Newt]

Hi Snowwhite,

I applaud you!* * I too plant for the critters and have found some wonderful surprises of what is a food source.* I plant extra parsely for the caterpillars as this plant is a larval food source for the Black Swallowtail butterfly.* My bronze fennel also feeds the caterpillars of the Black Swallowtail butterfly.

As for pH preference of plants, you've probably discovered that most plants prefer a pH of neutral (7.0) to slightly acid (<7.0).* That's their preference, but many plants thrive in pH conditions that aren't optimum.* Adding lots of organic matter such as compost will help.* I did a google search using the term:
pH + Gaultheria
and find that most sites say they prefer a pH of less then 6.8 (<6.8).* That is very close to neutral.* You don't say what the pH is of the area you plan on planting.
http://www.wildflower.org/plants/res...id_plant=GAPR2

There are some things you can add to the soil to lower the pH towards more acid.* Mulching with pine straw (pine needles) or shredded oak leaves are said to have little effect on the pH of soil.
http://solutions.psu.edu/Horticultur...caping_338.htm

Here's what you can do to change the pH of your soil.
http://www.savvygardener.com/Features/soil_ph.html

You said, "For the north side I was thinking ajuga (I heard that can be a little bit invasive)."* I have found that ajuga can be very invasive over time and it's not native to the US.* I planted some under a tree in my front lawn and it continually pops up in the lawn.
http://www.floridata.com/ref/A/ajug_rep.cfm

You said, "...I would like to plant bulbs (tulip, iris, crocosmia, canna etc.) in that area. Would the creeping thyme keep it from coming through?"* Your bulbs will pop up through the creeping thyme.

Ok, back to butterflies, birds and hummers.* :)* I have several sites with plant lists for all kinds of wildlife value.* For me to make a list would be too cumbersome.* I will list some of my favorites for groundcover though.

This site is from Georgia but lists native trees, shrubs, perennials, grasses, ferns and vines and gives the wildlife value of each plant.
http://www.gwf.org/resources/wildlif...lantindex.html

This is a list of hummer plants.* From the list of "Top Ten Native Hummbingbird Plants" I DO NOT RECOMMEND Campsis radicans aka trumpet vine as it's highly invasive in the garden.* Over time it will send out roots up to 40' or more from the parent plant and you'll have sprouts everywhere.
http://www.rubythroat.org/PlantsNativeMain.html

Here is a list of "Top Ten Exotic Hummingbird Plants".* I DO NOT RECOMMEND Mimosa aka Silktree aka Albizia julibrissin as it's become an invasive pest in many southern states.* I am also reading that Butterfly Bush aka Buddleja davidii. also spelled Buddleia has escaped and is now becoming a problem in many areas.* Considering how it's seeded around my garden, it saddens me to say I can see why it's a potential invasive.
http://www.rubythroat.org/PlantsExoticTopTen.html

Groundcovers for shade that I prefer:

Spigelia marilandica aka Indian pink a stunning native for the hummers in sun to dappled shade.
http://www.rubythroat.org/PinkIndianMain.html
http://www.mobot.org/GARDENINGHELP/P....asp?code=F640
http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/wildl..._spigelia.html

Heuchera sanguinea aka Coral bells are visited by 'my' hummers in my garden.* There are so many lovely ones now with pretty colored leaves that it boggles the mind.* Try and select ones with red or pink flowers.* Actually after looking at this site, try and select just one!* :shock:
http://www.terranovanurseries.com/wh...owpage&pid=346

You will also see Heucherella at the Terranova site. It's a cross between two natives - Heuchera (coral bells) and Tiarella (foam flower). It's sterile, doesn't produce seeds and doesn't do well in less then pampered conditions. So don't even bother with them.

Aquilegia aka Columbine has several cultivars, but the most common one seen in the wild is the native Aquilegia canadensis.* It's a red and yellow flower, sometimes called granny's bonnet. It's a short lived perennial but seeds around the garden and isn't invasive. It's not really a groundcover, but I love mine when it appears in places I'd never thought to plant it. It's easy to pull out where you don't want it and the leaves are distinctive when the little plants emerge. They remind me of curly parsley. Let the seed heads dry on the plant and harvest the pods as soon as they open. Scatter the seeds where you want them so you'll always have some. Don't purchase the double hybrids as the hummers can't get to the nectar and they don't produce as much. These will grow in sun, part sun and part shade.
http://www.northcreeknurseries.com/i.../133/index.htm

There are some native Tiarella aka foam flower that bloom in pink. Some have pretty colored leaves. They like part shade to shade.
Tiarella 'Pink Brushes'
http://www.bobna.com/plantlist/tiarellapinkbrushes.asp

Tiarella 'Pink Pearls'
http://www.bobna.com/plantlist/tiarellapinkpearls.asp

Cornus canadensis aka bunchberry native dogwood groundcover.* I like the fact that the berries are edible for the birds.
http://www.rosebay.org/chapterweb/shadegt40.htm
http://www.ct-botanical-society.org/...ornuscana.html

Mitchella repens aka partridge berry is another woody evergreen native with berries but will need some shade.* This would be one of my favorite native ground covers if it would just grow faster! For the patient gardener who appreciates beauty, this wonderful ground cover forms a small mat of evergreen foliage with a dainty white stripe running down the middle of the leaves of some varieties. Height 2-4 in. Pink-white flowers in June with inviting red berries that last into winter and feed the birds. Prefers moist soil.
http://www.rosebay.org/chapterweb/shadegt72.htm
http://www.rosebay.org/chapterweb/shadegt73.htm
http://www.ct-botanical-society.org/...hellarepe.html

Phlox divaricata aka woodland phlox is a native groundcover with different colored flowers. The most common is blue. Spreads without being invasive and likes rich soil. Nice with ferns growing through it. This is not the tall fragrant phlox.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...ch&sa=N&tab=wi
http://www.easywildflowers.com/quality/phl.div.htm
http://www.ct-botanical-society.org/...phloxdiva.html
http://www.npr.org/programs/talkingp...les/phlox.html

If you have room for vines, Lonicera sempervirens is a native honeysuckle that won't take over the world and smother trees in the environment like the Japanese honeysuckle does.* I have two and the hummers love my Lonicera sempervirens 'Blanche Sandman' better then the yellow Lonicera sempervirens 'John Clayton'.* Native honeysuckle is great for hummingbirds and these bloom on and off from the beginning of May to hard frost in my zone 7 garden.* Then in the fall the birds eat the berries and they entertain me.* I've even had birds build nests in the vines.
Lonicera sempervirens 'Blanche Sandman'
http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/p....asp?code=B934
http://oakmediacreations.com/myg/pla...PlantID=000116

If you decide to do mailorder hold on to this site to check references.* You can also search for highly rated nurseries anywhere or search by some individual plants.
http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/

Newt

[backyardgardener]

If this works, you can find additional data from this URL
http://www.backyardgardener.com/plantsearch.html

[Newt]

Backyardgardener,

I had problems with it.* The first search I put in groundcover and the from zone as 7.* I selected shade to dappled shade and it gave me over 2000 plants.* To narrow it down I only* changed the hardiness zones to 5 to 7 and got nothing.* Then I did zones 1 to 7 and still got nothing.

Newt

[snowwhite]

[align=left]First of all, thank you so much for taking the time and responding :)*I think now I have more questions than before....:?*I think I will start new posts for my other questions.[/align]
[align=left]Since more and more houses are being built, I want to give back a little to the critters. I don't need all these ornamental plants and exotics that have no wildlife value (or just grass full of fertilizers and pesticides). There are so many native plants that are beautiful too. I can't believe that some nurseries still sell invasive plants. I don't need a burning bush, english ivy or Bradford pear ;)[/align]
[align=left]I guess I should have been clearer in my e-mail that I have planted for wildlife before when we lived in Wisconsin and been on some of the websites you suggested*already (so you wouldn't have to spend so much time giving me all the info - that was very nice of you!).*I have a pretty good idea on what flowers and shrubs I want to plant - I've been working on it for weeks*(I just have to decide the perfect spots for it) - just don't know much about ground covers. Now that we are living in NC, there are a lot of the same plants I can plant here too, but also lots of new ones of course*(and native to this area).*Still so much to learn! The only groundcover I've had experience with is ajuga (back in Wisconsin) and it was actually well behaved however I will stay away from it![/align]
[align=left]Yes, too bad Butterfly Bush and Trumpet Vine are invasive (although Trumpet Vine is a native down here I believe). I will definitely plant Cross Vine and Honeysuckle (native), though. I know that Virgina Creeper is a great food source but I might plant it in a big pot (and not trailing on the house or a tree) to keep it in check. American Bittersweet (NOT the exotic one)* is also a great food source, I heard. Have you had experience with these vines?[/align]
[align=left]I planted annuals several weeks ago and I also planted fennel, parsley and dill as host plants! I have some n window boxes (hanging on our porch) and some in big containers on the porch but whenever I see butterflies flying by, they seem to fly lower. I hope they'll see all my flowers up there (of course the hummingbirds do).[/align]
[align=left]I have checked out davesgarden and*floridata in the past few weeks and they are a great source. Whenever I think I found the perfect ground cover I read something about it that makes me think that it won't work (and different websites mention different things - sometimes the opposite like in terms of sun/shade). I am going round in circles LOL. My head is spinning. The more I read the more confused I get!*So I really appreciate all your help. [/align]
[align=left]I am done doing the soil tests and on the south side of the house (pretty much clay) the ph is 7.0 (I will add good soil and this is where my perennials will go). Very low on nutrients.[/align]
[align=left]On the north side of the house, the ph is 7.0 also (sandy, very low on nutrients). I decided to plant shade flowers there (you mentioned columbines - I had them in Wisconsin and they belong to my favorite flowers!) and two shrubs. Probably Viburnums that are OK with shade however I am worried that they won't produce as many berries being in the shade the whole time. As for ground cover I was thinking about bunchberry like you mentioned but then I read that it needs acidic soil (otherwise it doesn't do well)*so I guess I would have to change the ph. Thanks for pointing out the "savvygardener" website. [/align]
[align=left]At first I thought the*creeping phlox*was also a great option. I read it does well in shade but then*I also*read on several sites that it looks a lot better (gets more flowers) when planted in part sun. But the spots where I need ground cover*are either full shade or full sun. Partridge berry sounds good too. Again, it would be in full shade though and it likes acid soil.[/align]
[align=left]Indian Pink sounds wonderful!! But again, it seems like it does best in part shade. So probably not perfect for the north side (all shade) or the curb side (lots of sun).[/align]
[align=left]I will plant Coral Bells and Tiarella*too but not as a ground cover since it gets a little bit too tall (at least it's not creeping) - but it seems like Indian Pink isn't creeping either.[/align]
[align=left]I think winter creeper is a no-no too, since it's invasive?[/align]
[align=left]Periwinkel, Wild ginger? Hmmmm. Don't benefit wildlife, though, or do they?[/align]
[align=left]Our house is brand new and when we moved in, there were a few hollies, boxwood*and small junipers already. Right in front of the house the ph is* 5.0 (and sandy). They mulched with pine needles) and planted boxwood. Since this is too boring for me (I love color) I would like to plant azeleas and Mountain Laurel there. [/align]
[align=left]Front yard (lots of sun, also very low on nutrients): this is an area where they planted holly (not sure if it's doing so well) and small, yellow junipers (and pine needles for mulch). There is quite a bit of space there so I would like to plant Inkberry. The ph is 6.0 (sandy). For groundcover I would like to plant the creeping thyme.[/align]
[align=left]By the driveway (existing hollies and the same junipers, mulched with pine needles): ph 7.0, sandy (also very low on nutrients). This is where I would like to plant all the bulbs (so there is something blooming all year round) however I would need to plant a nice looking ground cover that likes sun (I decided not to plant creeping thyme there because I don't think it would go well with the bulbs). I wanted to go with "Green-and-Gold" which is a native, but it needs more shade.[/align]
[align=left]Another question I have: Even if I have plants that like sand, should I still add top and garden soil?[/align]
[align=left]When we dug the flower bed on the south side, we had to use the rototiller (all clay). I haven't been able to mix "good" soil into it and now the clay is all dried out (it kept raining, the got hot, raining, hot...). Well, the other day I wanted to mix it with the soil but the clay was rock hard. Should we get the rototiller again and mix the top/garden soil in that way?[/align]
[align=left]I have plans for our backyard too but I will start a new post for that.[/align]
[align=left]Oh, I had the same problem with the plantsearch link![/align]
[align=left]Thank you so much for all your help and I apologize for this long e-mail.[/align]
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[Newt]

[user=3772]snowwhite[/user] wrote:

First of all, thank you so much for taking the time and responding :)*I think now I have more questions than before....:?*I think I will start new posts for my other questions.

You are so very welcome!* Sorry that all that info lead to more questions, but that happens to me too.
[align=left]

Since more and more houses are being built, I want to give back a little to the critters. I don't need all these ornamental plants and exotics that have no wildlife value (or just grass full of fertilizers and pesticides). There are so many native plants that are beautiful too. I can't believe that some nurseries still sell invasive plants. I don't need a burning bush, english ivy or Bradford pear ;)

I agree totally.* My son in law planted a bradford pear and I felt so sad.* Of course this was after I recommended that they don't plant one.* :(

[/align] [align=left]

I guess I should have been clearer in my e-mail that I have planted for wildlife before when we lived in Wisconsin and been on some of the websites you suggested*already (so you wouldn't have to spend so much time giving me all the info - that was very nice of you!).*I have a pretty good idea on what flowers and shrubs I want to plant - I've been working on it for weeks (I just have to decide the perfect spots for it) - just don't know much about ground covers. Now that we are living in NC, there are a lot of the same plants I can plant here too, but also lots of new ones of course (and native to this area).*Still so much to learn! The only groundcover I've had experience with is ajuga (back in Wisconsin) and it was actually well behaved however I will stay away from it!

[/align] [align=left]It's refreshing to know that you are already familiar with planting for wildlife.* If you live in a woodland area or one with lots of natives, I'm glad you won't plant the ajuga.

[/align] [align=left]

Yes, too bad Butterfly Bush and Trumpet Vine are invasive (although Trumpet Vine is a native down here I believe). I will definitely plant Cross Vine and Honeysuckle (native), though. I know that Virgina Creeper is a great food source but I might plant it in a big pot (and not trailing on the house or a tree) to keep it in check. American Bittersweet (NOT the exotic one)* is also a great food source, I heard. Have you had experience with these vines?

Yes, I inherited trumpet vine when I moved in here.* Just do a google with the term:
trumpet vine + Newt
and you'll get the entire story.* Actually I think there are some posts here too if you search the boards with the term 'trumpet vine'.* All I can say is DON'T plant it in a garden.* If you have a wild area it's ok.* I've not had experience with American Bittersweet, but I can research it for you if you like.
[/align] [align=left]

I planted annuals several weeks ago and I also planted fennel, parsley and dill as host plants! I have some n window boxes (hanging on our porch) and some in big containers on the porch but whenever I see butterflies flying by, they seem to fly lower. I hope they'll see all my flowers up there (of course the hummingbirds do).

How cool!* *
[/align]

I have checked out davesgarden and*floridata in the past few weeks and they are a great source. Whenever I think I found the perfect ground cover I read something about it that makes me think that it won't work (and different websites mention different things - sometimes the opposite like in terms of sun/shade). I am going round in circles LOL. My head is spinning. The more I read the more confused I get!*So I really appreciate all your help.

Keep in mind that you are in a warmer climate now, so plants that needed more sun where you lived before, will appreciate the shade in the heat of your current location.* Look at several sites for requirements for sun and try and seek out ones that are your zone ior state.* You might find this North Carolina site helpful..
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/c...ets/index.html

I am done doing the soil tests and on the south side of the house (pretty much clay) the ph is 7.0 (I will add good soil and this is where my perennials will go). Very low on nutrients.

Most plants prefer a pH of neutral to slightly acid, so that shouldn't be a problem.* I have sites that show the pH preference of many plants.* Not too many of them are natives, but if you'd like those I'd glady share them.

Since you already have soil, even though it's clay, I would recommend you just add lots of organic matter.* Compost is great for that and will help with the texture of the clay.* It will certainly help with nutrients.* Of course you could add other organic amendments depending on what is needed.* If you need sites on those just lmk.* Over time, with adding compost, the soil quality will improve.* To start off you could add 3" to 4" of compost to the planting bed and mix it in.* For the natural and woodland areas you can shred your leaves in fall and use them as a mulch.* Just like mother nature does it.* :D* If you don't have a leaf shredder you can use a lawn mower with a bagger.

On the north side of the house, the ph is 7.0 also (sandy, very low on nutrients). I decided to plant shade flowers there (you mentioned columbines - I had them in Wisconsin and they belong to my favorite flowers!) and two shrubs. Probably Viburnums that are OK with shade however I am worried that they won't produce as many berries being in the shade the whole time. As for ground cover I was thinking about bunchberry like you mentioned but then I read that it needs acidic soil (otherwise it doesn't do well)*so I guess I would have to change the ph. Thanks for pointing out the "savvygardener" website.

You are correct about the viburnums.* This first site lists some viburnums and their berry producing habits.
http://www.sylvannursery.com/pdf/viburnum.pdf
http://www.taunton.com/finegardening...le-shrubs.aspx

There are other shrubs, many natives, that will do well in shade.* You may not get berries for the birds, but some produce nectar for beneficial insects or butterflies.* Itea virginica is one I have and it can take quite a bit of shade.* Of course it's a native, the butterflies like it and there's berries for the birds. I have the cultivar 'Henry's Garnet'.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/c...virginica.html
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/c...virginica.html
http://www.floridata.com/ref/i/itea_vir.cfm

Clethra alnifolia aka Summersweet is another native that grows in part shade.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/c...alnifolia.html
http://www.floridata.com/ref/c/clet_aln.cfm

Carolina sweetshrub aka Calycanthus floridus now comes in a yellow flower as well as the maroon and grows in shade to sun.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/c..._floridus.html
http://www.tva.gov/river/landandshor...sweetshrub.htm
http://www.floridata.com/ref/C/caly_flo.cfm

This site is from Duke University.* Not all the woody plants here are natives, but I think most are.* You can look at trees, shrubs and vines..
http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/index.html

At first I thought the*creeping phlox*was also a great option. I read it does well in shade but then*I also*read on several sites that it looks a lot better (gets more flowers) when planted in part sun. But the spots where I need ground cover*are either full shade or full sun. Partridge berry sounds good too. Again, it would be in full shade though and it likes acid soil.

I still think your pH isn't going to be a problem so try 3 plants of the partridge berry and see how they do.

Indian Pink sounds wonderful!! But again, it seems like it does best in part shade. So probably not perfect for the north side (all shade) or the curb side (lots of sun).

It can take sun if I remember.

I will plant Coral Bells and Tiarella*too but not as a ground cover since it gets a little bit too tall (at least it's not creeping) - but it seems like Indian Pink isn't creeping either.

I would suggest the same here.* Try 3 plants and see how they do.

I think winter creeper is a no-no too, since it's invasive?

Correct.

Periwinkel, Wild ginger? Hmmmm. Don't benefit wildlife, though, or do they?

Periwinkle aka vinca is invasive and not native.* Native gingers are nice.* I have some and I think they are pollinated by ants.* That's a critter.* :D*

Our house is brand new and when we moved in, there were a few hollies, boxwood*and small junipers already. Right in front of the house the ph is* 5.0 (and sandy). They mulched with pine needles) and planted boxwood. Since this is too boring for me (I love color) I would like to plant azeleas and Mountain Laurel there.

We planted Kalmia aka Mountain Laurel at my daughter's and they are gorgeous after 3 years.* There are dwarf cultivars that aren't as open and airy as the larger ones.* They remind me of 'home' in the Catskill Mountains of New York..* :)* Just add lots of compost to the sandy soil.* Besides, these shrubs like good drainage.

Front yard (lots of sun, also very low on nutrients): this is an area where they planted holly (not sure if it's doing so well) and small, yellow junipers (and pine needles for mulch). There is quite a bit of space there so I would like to plant Inkberry. The ph is 6.0 (sandy). For groundcover I would like to plant the creeping thyme.

That should work.

By the driveway (existing hollies and the same junipers, mulched with pine needles): ph 7.0, sandy (also very low on nutrients). This is where I would like to plant all the bulbs (so there is something blooming all year round) however I would need to plant a nice looking ground cover that likes sun (I decided not to plant creeping thyme there because I don't think it would go well with the bulbs). I wanted to go with "Green-and-Gold" which is a native, but it needs more shade.

I shared some Green and Gold with a neighbor and they planted it in full sun 5 years ago.* It's doing fine and looks better then mine in shade.* It doesn't like wet feet in the winter or wet leaves on it.* Great choice.* I smile when I see it as I love yellow flowers.* :)* My problem is I love all flowers!

Another question I have: Even if I have plants that like sand, should I still add top and garden soil?

I wouldn't add any soil.* Just lots of organic matter such as compost.* Ok, it's time to get out the 'soil' links.* ;)* First, here's a compost calculator so you'll know how much you need.
http://www.cedar-grove.com/calculator.asp

Soil and organic amendments.
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/altsoilamend.html
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/orgfert.php
http://www.greenhands.com/soil/index.html

Lots and lots to read about soil here.* Some of these sites are used by the pros so I hope I'm not throwing too much at you.* :?
http://www.soils.usda.gov/sqi/concep..._food_web.html

When we dug the flower bed on the south side, we had to use the rototiller (all clay). I haven't been able to mix "good" soil into it and now the clay is all dried out (it kept raining, the got hot, raining, hot...). Well, the other day I wanted to mix it with the soil but the clay was rock hard. Should we get the rototiller again and mix the top/garden soil in that way?

Yes, you'll have to break it up again and add lots of organic matter like compost.* Don't do it when it's wet or you'll have cement.* Sorry about that.* :(

I have plans for our backyard too but I will start a new post for that.

Whew!* Good, we'll do that on another day.*

Oh, I had the same problem with the plantsearch link!

Sorry about that.

Thank you so much for all your help and I apologize for this long e-mail

No problem and you are so very welcome!* I love to 'talk'about the envrionment and native plants.* :)
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Newt
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[snowwhite]

[align=left]More great info! Thank you so much :). And again, thanks for your input.[/align]
[align=left]Sheeesh - the organic matter issue is quite confusing (for me at least LOL).[/align]
[align=left]But what do you do if you have planted different plants with different requirements in one bed? How do I know how much N, P, K is needed for each plant??[/align]
[align=left]Also, my husband is not excited about digging flower beds in the backyard (darn!)*so he asked me why I don't do it in the front yard where we already have an existing bed (where I want to plant creeping thyme and Inkberry). Well, I had been thinking about that too however I am afraid that it's too close to the street (it's a residential street) and birds/hummers/butterflies might get killed. Should I be concerned?[/align]
[align=left]Thanks![/align]

[Newt]

"But what do you do if you have planted different plants with different requirements in one bed? How do I know how much N, P, K is needed for each plant??"

If your soil is rich in organic material that shouldn't be a problem.* If some nutrients are missing, the leaves or growth pattern of the plants will tell you there's a problem.* Generally the plants will take what they need if it's in the soil.


"...I am afraid that it's too close to the street (it's a residential street) and birds/hummers/butterflies might get killed. Should I be concerned?"

Yes and no.* Butterlies can be battered by the wind and their wings can be damaged.* The fumes from cars aren't good for the critters.* Most birds and hummers will avoid the wind from cars.* Maybe a buffer from the street with shrubs on the road side and the flowers on the house side of the bed.* Of course a garden bed in the back would be great too.* Is there a teenager who can help you to dig the new bed(s)?

Newt

[Allison1888]

Great effort. Glad you're doing this. Please keep us posted so we can follow the progress.

[snowwhite]

[align=left]Well, everything is on hold right now. It got too hot so I'll wait until fall to plant. We need the irrigation system put in first. Hubby and I agreed on ONE more flower bed :). I'll ask the landscaping company what their thoughts are on planting around trees however, I like to do my own research because unfortunately, you can't even trust the pros. Sometimes, they don't know what they are doing.[/align]
[align=left]The other day I went to a nursery (shrubs and trees) with my long list of native plants. Most of the plants I wanted they didn't have. That guy said: "You have quite unusual requests...". UNUSUAL?? These are native plants for crying out loud! But yeah, everybody wants the ornamental, exotic stuff (that most of the time is useless for wildlife). I also asked him about female/male plants and he had no clue. I asked him about inkberry and he didn't even know they carry berries. He said he has never seen and berries so his shrubs might be ornamental ones (??). He probably has never seen them because they are so tiny. Is there such a thing as ornamental inkberry? So that was quite frustrating. People who have nurseries for years and years and don't know anything about their plants they sell?[/align]
[align=left]Anyway, I browsed the web for nurseries that carry native plants and I found a few. I'll just have to drive a little.[/align]
[align=left]I heard that the extensions (Master Gardeners) are also good places to ask for advice.[/align]
[align=left]For now, I'll do more research, visit botanical gardens and hopefully I'll be ready in fall to plant.[/align]
[align=left]Oh, one more question: In one area (sunny) I would like to either plant creeping firethorn or cotoneaster. They have tons of berries that birds like. Should I take one over the other? Any of them invasive (I haven't read anything about that). I think they are both not native but I am thinking of planting one of them since it seems to be great food for the birdies.[/align]
[align=left]I will certainly keep you updated![/align]
[align=left]Thank you so much for your help :)[/align]