Trees and ponds

[ckroeg]

Hi, New here and looking for info on trees. We recently had to remove a 40'+ Silver Maple from our backyard. It had three main beams from the trunk that were split between each and couldn't be saved. After seeing the stump you could see that they were splint almost completely to the ground, which was too bad since it was a nice tree and our only shade for the yard. We have decided as part of our landscaping to add a small koi pond to the yard. In addition we would like to plant some additional trees to landscape near the pond as well as provide some shade and privacy from the backyard neighbors, which mind you was lost with the loss of the tree.

Here is what we have currently. Our yard is quite large* and long for a suburban area near the Twin Cities of Minnesota. No side yards but long back yard. This year we planted four 6' apple trees in the back northeast corner. We also planted a Mission Blue Spruce (4') and two small white pines (2') along the back fence* close to the other corner.

About 30 feet or so from the house is where we will put the pond. This will allow us extra space to expand the deck in the future, leaving the pond next to the deck as a focal point. We would like to plant some kind of tree that would slightly shade the pond as it grows as well as the deck area and provide that much needed privacy. We have been looking at the Whitespire Birch as a main shade tree to that area. However many of the "pond people" say that they will "seek" water sources and could harm the pond liner with it's roots as it grows. Is this an issue if we were to plant the tree about 20' from the north edge of the pond? Would anyone forsee any issue with the roots if the tree was just now a 10' tree we plant?

In addition to that we also thought of a Japanese Red Maple*closer to the pond, between the pond and the neighbors fence on the west (our house faces south).Thought it would add interest, color and some shade later in it's growth. The problem, even though they are sold here, is would it be hardy enough to survive a Minnesota winter? Are there any issue with growing these trees? Does anyone see an issue with it's roots in the future being close to the pond?

Any other suggestions for Minnesota hardy trees that would work for this idea would be very much appreciated. Keep in mind we would like a shade tree that is larger for the farther spot as well as something under 20' at maturity for the area close to the pond. Nothing with dropping fruit would work though, small dog and pond clean up. Ok with the clean up of leaves though.

Help Please!

Chris

Farmington, Mn

*

[Newt]

Hi Chris,

I'd like to note that I get your hardiness zone as 4.* Here's a zip code zone finder.
http://www.gardenweb.com/zones/zip.cgi


[line]"Here is what we have currently. Our yard is quite large* and long for a suburban area near the Twin Cities of Minnesota. No side yards but long back yard. This year we planted four 6' apple trees in the back northeast corner. We also planted a Mission Blue Spruce (4') and two small white pines (2') along the back fence* close to the other corner."
[line]
I'd like to address the trees you've already planted.* You mention that you have no side yards, only a back and front, which leads me to believe you are in some type of townhouse.* You say you planted a Mission Blue Spruce and two White Pines along the back fence.* Then you say you planted four apples in the corner.* Your house must be VERY wide indeed.*

Picea pungens 'Mission Blue' - 15' tall and ?? wide.* I'm getting all kinds of widths as I search, but I'd say to allow 20' at the base.* This last site lists it as a shrub.* Hmm.* Is it a dwarf?
http://web1.msue.msu.edu/imp/modzz/00001096.html
http://gardeninglaunchpad.com/statet...adospruce.html
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/trees/handbook/th-3-177.pdf
http://www.iseli-nursery.com/Plantde...ceapungens.htm

White pine - Pinus strobus has a spread of 20' to 40' feet and you have two.
http://www.rook.org/earl/bwca/nature...inusstrob.html
http://hortwww-2.ag.ohio-state.edu/h.../pi_robus.html

If these trees are lined up shoulder to shoulder, not counting the apples, and considering the lesser of the badword widths, you would need a lot that is 60' wide for just these 3 trees along the fence to badword properly.* Hmm.* I notice you keep mentioning the size of the trees now.* What is important is the m@ture size they will reach.



[line]"About 30 feet or so from the house is where we will put the pond. This will allow us extra space to expand the deck in the future, leaving the pond next to the deck as a focal point. We would like to plant some kind of tree that would slightly shade the pond as it grows as well as the deck area and provide that much needed privacy. We have been looking at the Whitespire Birch as a main shade tree to that area. However many of the "pond people" say that they will "seek" water sources and could harm the pond liner with it's roots as it grows. Is this an issue if we were to plant the tree about 20' from the north edge of the pond? Would anyone forsee any issue with the roots if the tree was just now a 10' tree we plant?"
[line]
Keep in mind that the roots of a tree will grow past the drip line of the m@ture crown.* If the m@ture crown is 20' wide, figure that the roots will grow another 10' past that.* That means that you should allow at least 15' from the trunk for the outer reaches of the roots.* Here's some info on Birches.* The second site says your 'Whitespire' will m@ture at a 30' spread so you would need at least 20' from trunk to outer edge of roots.* I'm also including how tree roots grow.
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/ho...h/ht_birch.htm
http://www.horsfordnursery.com/new/p...us_trees2.html
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/WO017



[line]"In addition to that we also thought of a Japanese Red Maple*closer to the pond, between the pond and the neighbors fence on the west (our house faces south).Thought it would add interest, color and some shade later in it's growth. The problem, even though they are sold here, is would it be hardy enough to survive a Minnesota winter? Are there any issue with growing these trees? Does anyone see an issue with it's roots in the future being close to the pond?"
[line]
The issue I see is that you need a very large lot for all these trees.* Please keep in mind the m@ture spread of the crown of these trees.* I would suggest you draw your lot to scale on graph paper and make paper circles to scale of the m@ture crowns (bases in the case of the evergreens) of the trees, add the deck and pond and see if it all fits.* Don't forget the 4 apples.* You don't say what variety they are so you will have to do a search to find their m@ture crown width.* I'm hoping they are the columnar varieties or dwarf or mini's.

This site has loads of info on Japanese maples, both the dwarf weeping ones and the upright ones.* I checked your hardiness zone and they don't have any that grow further north then zone 7.* I'm in zone 7 in Maryland.* Their roots are usually not a problem like other maples.
http://www.mountainmaples.com/WS4D_C..._15/index.html
http://www.mountainmaples.com/WS4D_C..._7/search.html



[line]"Any other suggestions for Minnesota hardy trees that would work for this idea would be very much appreciated. Keep in mind we would like a shade tree that is larger for the farther spot as well as something under 20' at maturity for the area close to the pond. Nothing with dropping fruit would work though, small dog and pond clean up. Ok with the clean up of leaves though."
[line]
Here's a search engine you can use.* I only put in 'Plant type' as a tree, 'Zone' 4 and 'Spread' of 15' to 30'.* The more you put in the less results you will get.
http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/p...der/Search.asp

If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask.
Newt

[ckroeg]

Thanks for all the info, I will make sure to get my husband on those sites if they aren't the ones he has already visited. We did find that we didn't want to risk the cost of the Japanese Maple. They do sell them here but only one or two instances when they were able to keep them alive in the winter and some people would bring them in during the winter. That I can see would work in a planter for a few years, but lets get real with the mature trees, not an easy task if you do try.

As for the apple trees we have all the mini/dwarf varities as well as a couple which will be trained to grow along the fence (six total). The way they are spaced in the yard they take about a* 30'x30' square in the back corner, now the size I am just guessing on so don't quote me. We were able to get some info from the Arboretum locally and they had several planted to grow that way.

The Mission blue will be about 20' feet at the base so where it is planted will be perfect for the yard, however the two tiny white pines I think we are either going to move them or give them to a friend. We decided that they weren't going to work where we put them, but they were a good deal and at the time we didn't even plan on a pond that idea came much later.

The smaller maple is going to stay for now, but my husband is just itching to get it down. We will have to see how it works in the overall sceme of things. Most likely he will get his way. Our main concern however was the idea of new trees that would or wouldn't be good for a pond. We did map everything out on a web application that puts things to scale and that gave us a great picture of what we could do.

We went with two whitespire birches (10' now). Then are placed about 15' to 20' from where the edge of the pond will be and another 25' from each other. I think they will work out well. As far as being water seeking trees we found that if you keep them mulched around the base of the tree their roots will grow deeper vs. shallow. We were told* that this way they aren't in competition from the grass directly below the tree, at least this is what we were told. They look great, I can't wait from them to be bigger.

Thanks so much for all the good info, I am glad, it helped to reinforce what we had already learned. And by the way we have about 7-8' of side yard on either side of the house and we actually live in a suburban house, but our yard is very long so that is how we have been able to get all the trees we have. Sorry if I didn't explain that better. My husband is a tree "freak" and would make our yard a forest or* an orchard if I let him. That's why if I know somethings, I can draw back on his reigns a little if needed.

Thanks again for the great info. If you learn anything else let me know or know of any good pond/watergarden sites let me know.

Chris

*

[Newt]

Chris, you are so very welcome!* I too love trees and that is why I'm willing to spend so much time trying to help.* Glad to read that you have the Japanese maple issue decided and the apples covered with how you will grow them.* Sounds like you will do espalier.* Also glad to hear that the white pines will have a new home. Great!* Also glad to hear about you mapping everything out already.* See, great minds think alike!! :D

With what you have deleted, and the picture I have in my mind, it does sound like the Whitespire birches will work for you.* Not sure the mulching is what will keep the roots deeper in the soil.* Never heard of that.* I do know that a root barrier will make the roots grow deeper and is often used in situations where there are sidewalks, etc.* Here's some info on them.* I did give you info on how tree roots grow, but if you'd like to see more info on that I'd be happy to give you a couple of links that should be helpful.* If a tree's roots want to surface, they will, and mulch alone won't stop them.
http://www.deeproot.com/
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/e...2/art3mar.html
http://www.igin.com/Landscaping/rootbarriers.html

Thanks for the info on the side yards.* I live on a zero clearance lot.* That means that one side of my house (a ranch) sits ON the property line.* I only have one side yard.

Not sure what you want to know about ponds.* There is a great forum at Garden Web on ponds.* I also have instructions on how to build a realistic stream if you're interested.* If you decide to join Garden Web, be sure to add your state and hardiness zone to your profile so folks won't have to ask you.* They also have forums on 'Trees' and even one for 'Minnesota Gardening'.* If you post the same question on more then one forum, be sure to change the title of your post a bit or their computer will think you are spamming and block you.
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/ponds/
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/mngard/

Here's their main forums page.
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/

Regards,
Newt

[ckroeg]

You know I didn't realize until now that you gave me the address of the gardenweb forum that I had visited before* I found this one. I knew I recognized your screen name before here, and now I know where. I was just replying to someone on this site about ponds and recommened the gardenweb forum for ponding info. What a coinsidence! I guess you really do love gardening and a variety at that.

It would be very interesting to see what you have done with your landscaping?

Hope to use your knowledge along the way. Thanks!

Chris

[Bud]

A japanese maple would probably be a good choice as well altho keep in mind they dont like "wet feet" so it would be a good idea to keep it away from the pond a bit.**